NCSM_30482

Determiner Wayne C. Starnes

Determination Date Nov. 20, 2009

Determination Type specimen examination

Identification Comments ID complete | The following is a comment from Wayne Starnes from e-mail 11/20/2009; "two small adults (~~330 TL)and 5 juveniles ranging in size from 38 - 102 mm TL; two adults are shaped more like redhorses than carpsuckers (which reminded me of the "forbesi" form reported from the prairie regions to the north); very elongate and terete; adults have absolutely no semblance of a lip nipple and have 29 D rays (above supposed range of carpio based on lit I have); LL scale counts are on the borderline (between cyprinus/carpio) at 36/37. The juvs, on the other hand, are much more typical in shape, much deeper bodied, etc. No nipples on them, either, but then I don't have a clear idea of when this character develops. Dorsal rays vary widely. Oddly the two largest juvs (63 & 102 TL) have 28 rays, probably corresponding to the adults. However the smallest three (38-55 TL) are quite low at 21-24). So, it's all quite puzzling; maybe two spp involved?. Based on the adults, I've been hard pressed to call them anything other than cyprinus based on balance of the evidence (I don't think D rays were probably examined on the smaller juvs when id'd back in '03). So, if TX "carpio" are shaped like cigars, have no lip nipples, and higher than normal D ray counts, then I guess you can call them that. The smaller ones at least do fall into the range of carpio meristically, the nipple question not withstanding. However, in the absence of a definitive genetic study, I'd have trouble accepting that for at least the adults." Also check e-mail from Hank Bart on 11/21/2009.

Identification Confidence Medium